Don't take our opening attempt at shilling seriously. We haven't picked up any sponsors yet. It's a stronger start to the show than our mispronunciation of names or the massive update of adaptations of Marvel comic books to the big screen. A large part of the show is spent discussing the role of the documentary and the potential bias of the documentarian, particularly the manipulative Michael Moore. Joining us for this Father's Day episode: Ron "the podcast dad" Telsch.
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some notes and criticisms, after listening to many shows over the last couple weeks
I think the show needs some real sprucing up. You've got a great film site with links from rottentomatoes that I view frequently and enjoy reading text reviews for. But the podcast is lacking both in info and entertainment. The news seems to cover the same mainstream ground (as dad seemed to point out near the end) that the Movie Blog does, and yet neither of you ever have the passion they do to make it entertaining. In the end it seems just like more blather and hype, even if you are indifferent overall.
Even though I dont always agree with Rafe, at least he seems to actually see the movies you're talking about. I really dont get why Margaret is on the show considering she doesnt seem to see anything being discussed, at least until well after everyones over and done discussing it. Or maybe she does, or maybe she's seeing other things - the point is that Margaret, you seem very nice, but you're filling space. Either you need to see whats being talked about to make you actually relevant, or Rafe needs to loosen the reins on the podcast and let Margaret talk more about what interests her and what she's been watching.
I took some exception to your talk about documentaries. By your standard of an agenda = not being a documentary, Paradise Lost 1 & 2 for example, would not be documentaries since the filmmakers pretty much intend to help the West Memphis Three. I'm sure if someone had the same passion against the WM3 that people have against Moore, a documentary could be make attempting to expose Berlinger/Sinofsky that would confuse many viewers about the truth.
I agree Moore is to be taken with a watchful eye, however it has become so fashionable to distance oneself from Moore that people everywhere are getting away with blatant untruths about what is and isnt in his movies. People float around the 'bowling for truth' site against Bowling for Columbine, even though the person who made that site is a gun lawyer and lobbyist who flat up fabricated things about that film to make a point. Now I dont know Rafe if you are simply misinformed, but as your evidence of Moore's manipulation of the truth - you cited Bush in the classroom with the children and that Moore fades in and out and gives no indication of time. I'm not saying Moore does not manipulate elsewhere, but in this scene you are absolutely wrong - Moore has a clock in the corner of the screen which shows how much time has past, and Moore narrates himself that 7 minutes have passed afterwards. And this is all well documented - you can watch the full video on youtube. Yes he cuts in and out to pass time quickly, but what do you suggest, he show the full 7 minute video to avoid being called manipulative by someone who would call him manipulative anyways, at the expense of the film and the viewers patience?
You also seem to think there was no controversy surrounding "An Inconvenient Truth" when I recall every right wing pundit bringing on Stossel or two bit scientists that dont agree to come on and spit ad nauseum attacks against Gore and accusing the film of being nothing more than a campaign tool for a 2008 run. There was plenty of controversy. Heck, March of the Penguins was even controversial to many.
Michael Moore puts out his opinion, loudly, and for that absolutely I dont mind people calling him out on things that may or not be true, or rebuttals to actual points. What I absolutely do mind is when people get confronted with this opposite opinion and then completely write off Moore's ability to ask questions in an entertaining way, and allow untrue claims against him to spread. I believe Rafe, in this podcast in order to denounce Moore, you essentially held all documentaries to an impossible standard of objectivity that DOES attack great documentaries such as Paradise Lost, Deliver Us From Evil, Jesus Camp (a biased film whose subjects were actually PLEASED with how they were portrayed), etc
You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and as a documentary fan I found this whole segment aggravating and ignorant.
C.Pierce, regarding your comment that Rafe was misinformed about F9/11...
Listen to that segment of the podcast again. He says straight out he hasn't seen F 9/11, and then he discusses why he never saw it. He never said anything about the way that scene with Bush plays out in the movie, he was discussing the way it was presented in the film's advertisements and the way those ads turned him off to the film.
He's not misrepresenting the movie, since he clearly says at the outset that he hasn't seen the film.
C.Pierce, how can you listen and not like Margaret? I agree she isn't always as up to date as maybe she should be but she is funny and she does a good job of representing the average woman who doesn't see a movie every weekend because of kids. She represents me on the show and I like listening to her.
maybe Margaret could get a little segment of her own every week though and watch a DVD over the weekend and review it on the show, just to show more of her knowledge or maybe Rafe and Margaret could make it a point to at least once or twice a month both go see the same movie so they can have an in depth discussion about it together on the show instead of one of them always being out of the loop
C.Pierce I don't think anyone who listens to The Movie Blog podcast can talk about how knowledgable other peopl are. John Campea is the biggest poser on the planet. I listened to his show for quite a while but he is the biggest no nothing ever. The worst thing about it is that he tries to hide and his ego is completely out of control at least Rafe and Margaret are honest about what they know and aren't total fakes. the Movie Blog podcast is kind of entertaining, but Campea doesn't care about any of the stuff he's talking about, and knows nothign about it he is only concerned with being famous or something it's sad. I don't think you have room to talk there is no comparison the Audio Show is so much better than Movie Blog
In the segment (around 28:30 he says 'the clips I saw' - if he means trailers i still ask why he would use that as the standard for what equals 'manipulation', however by clips I will always assume the person is talking about seeing a part of the film either by chance or through a Letterman or Leno clip or otherwise. So to me either he's judging via the wrong methods, or he completely forgets the scene.
I know he says he hasnt seen the film, but he could have still seen the full scene, which i assumed when he said "clips"
I dont dislike Margaret at all. As much as I roll my eyes when she would say, trash Borat as being already worth forgetting, shes a likable presence. I simply feel she is not being used correctly, instead of a sidekick who chimes in, if shes going to be there at all she should either be up to speed with Rafe or given her own time. Personally I'd rather see Rafe talk a little less and let her drive the show for a few minutes at least in the direction she specifically wants to go.
I cant think of any other podcast with a female present. I think cinemaslave used to have his wife on but shes not around this last good while. It would be good to see maybe the difference between the regular list of guy topics on fantasy and action movies vs what she is looking forward to. Likewise, if you were to bring "dad" on again giving him his own soapbox for some dramas he would be looking forward to, or just catering the topics more to him for an episode, woudl be very interesting.
i just hope you dont think i came here to shit all over the show. i just would like to see it improve in ways i think it is entirely capable of doing.
I suspect Rafe will respond with what he thinks C.Pierce, but I definitely don't think you came here to shit all over the show. To me you sound like someone who legitimately likes the show and would like to see it become even better than it is, and there's nothing wrong with that!
Sam, I listen to the Movie Blog, Cinemaslave, Filmspotting, Movie Patron, Film Junk, and more... they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I could go on about what i do and dont like about the movie blog, or should I say the Transformers Blog, but in the context of what I wrote I fully stand by them. They talk about mainstream stories, and they have enthusiasm about their opinions which makes the show entertaining. Not necessarily mandatory listening, but entertaining when I do.
I find that you'd see enjoyment of the Movie Blog on any level whatsoever as reason to write someone off as rather... snobbish.
C.Pierce you are the one who came here setting the movie blog up as some sort of standard by which all other shows could be measured. you're the one who used it as a comparison, and if you're going to use it as a measuring stick then that says something about you
the fact that you would use them as a standard for something they suck at so horribly is ridiculous. no podcast is perfect but it's kind of crappy behavior to come here and talk about how great some other (and in my opinion inferior) podcast is
if you want to talk about what you do and dont like about the audio show is one thing but leave those idiots at the movie blog at the door. that show is trash, even you admit they're basically just big a big advertisement for transformers they have no integrity and I don't find that entertaining. is your real name Doug Nagy?
I listen to most of the same shows C.Pierce does and I listen to a lot of podcasts. It would be nice if Rafe and Margaret went more in depth on some things, is that what you mean C.Pierce but still they are BETTER than any other podcast I listen to. Here's what I think ranked -----------
1) Cinema Blend podcast
2) SMODcast
3) Cinemaslave
4) Buzz Out Loud
5) Filmspotting
6) Filmjunk
7) Rotcast
8) The Movie Blog
First, let me agree with Josh. Let's leave the criticism of other podcasts out of this. Campea does his thing at the Movie Blog, Jason and Dave do their thing at Filmrot, etc, etc. We all run different shows with different intentions and I don't think you can really compare them - it's all down to personal taste.
My show's agenda is to give major news and opinions about that news. My opinion is that of a film lover who has way too much time to see movies. I live, eat, and breathe movies a lot of the time. How I ever got married to a woman who tolerates that is unknown to me, and ocassionally she shows up on the show as well - my suspicion is that means I haven't seen her enough lately so she appears to remind me that she exists.
Margaret's opinion is actually more valuable to me a lot of the time. First of all, she's a woman - and women don't have nearly enough of a presence in movie criticism. Even Paula Kael pointed out it was mostly a man's game. Secondly, Margaret is a wife and mother, which means her time to make it to the theater is incredibly limited. The few times she's able to go each year really highlights what movies the average Joe wants to see. Plus, she's funny as hell. The show was far too dry when it was just me.
On the F 9/11 debate - I have not seen the whole movie. I have seen the scene I mention in the podcast. To be completely fair - I saw it at a workshop on analyzing documentaries and looking at how the filmmaker manipulates the audience. Moore's was not the only one we looked at. For a direct comparison we looked at a very Republican-centric documentary on the exact same subject. The two juxtaposed next to each other really highlighted how filmmakers influence audience perceptions - even in the documentary genre where everything is theoretically "the truth".
I hold to my opinion in the podcast - it's incredibly rare to find a documentarian who doesn't create a documentary with an agenda and utilize the tools available to help persuade the audience to that agenda's mindset. There are a lot of very well respected and more intellegent people out there that agree with what I'm saying. Moore is easy to target for this because he is one of the most visible documentary filmmakers. Margaret started to hit on it in the show, but March of the Penguins is definitely anthropomorphic to influence the audience's sympathy. I wouldn't even agree with her that Super Size Me is without an agenda - he had to know eating nothing but Mickey-Ds was going to be unhealthy.
I know this is old news and what-what, but I'd like to know who this Jason person is who does The RotCast with me. :p
Also, I like how we're ranked 7th out of 8 when our show isn't anything like those others. You can debate the merits of CB's podcast with FilmJunk's, MoviePatron or whoever but please leave our show out of the discussion. We are trying to do something different and while what we do might not appeal to some people (like Rafe), we're at least trying to separate from the crowd.
Wow Dave. I'd think with the amount of writing you've done and the amount of typos anyone has published over the course of their career you'd understand mistaking James and Jason. Especially if you look at the description of this podcast episode (which begins with mispronouncing names). Irregardless, my apologies to mediamelt.
And please, don't tell me my opinion or pretend to tell others my opinion. I've never shared my opinion about your podcast publicly, especially now that it's changed formats, so don't state that your show doesn't appeal to me as if it's fact. Only I know how I feel about your podcast, although you're more then welcome to ask.
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June 18th, 2007 at 16:02
some notes and criticisms, after listening to many shows over the last couple weeks
I think the show needs some real sprucing up. You've got a great film site with links from rottentomatoes that I view frequently and enjoy reading text reviews for. But the podcast is lacking both in info and entertainment. The news seems to cover the same mainstream ground (as dad seemed to point out near the end) that the Movie Blog does, and yet neither of you ever have the passion they do to make it entertaining. In the end it seems just like more blather and hype, even if you are indifferent overall.
Even though I dont always agree with Rafe, at least he seems to actually see the movies you're talking about. I really dont get why Margaret is on the show considering she doesnt seem to see anything being discussed, at least until well after everyones over and done discussing it. Or maybe she does, or maybe she's seeing other things - the point is that Margaret, you seem very nice, but you're filling space. Either you need to see whats being talked about to make you actually relevant, or Rafe needs to loosen the reins on the podcast and let Margaret talk more about what interests her and what she's been watching.
I took some exception to your talk about documentaries. By your standard of an agenda = not being a documentary, Paradise Lost 1 & 2 for example, would not be documentaries since the filmmakers pretty much intend to help the West Memphis Three. I'm sure if someone had the same passion against the WM3 that people have against Moore, a documentary could be make attempting to expose Berlinger/Sinofsky that would confuse many viewers about the truth.
I agree Moore is to be taken with a watchful eye, however it has become so fashionable to distance oneself from Moore that people everywhere are getting away with blatant untruths about what is and isnt in his movies. People float around the 'bowling for truth' site against Bowling for Columbine, even though the person who made that site is a gun lawyer and lobbyist who flat up fabricated things about that film to make a point. Now I dont know Rafe if you are simply misinformed, but as your evidence of Moore's manipulation of the truth - you cited Bush in the classroom with the children and that Moore fades in and out and gives no indication of time. I'm not saying Moore does not manipulate elsewhere, but in this scene you are absolutely wrong - Moore has a clock in the corner of the screen which shows how much time has past, and Moore narrates himself that 7 minutes have passed afterwards. And this is all well documented - you can watch the full video on youtube. Yes he cuts in and out to pass time quickly, but what do you suggest, he show the full 7 minute video to avoid being called manipulative by someone who would call him manipulative anyways, at the expense of the film and the viewers patience?
You also seem to think there was no controversy surrounding "An Inconvenient Truth" when I recall every right wing pundit bringing on Stossel or two bit scientists that dont agree to come on and spit ad nauseum attacks against Gore and accusing the film of being nothing more than a campaign tool for a 2008 run. There was plenty of controversy. Heck, March of the Penguins was even controversial to many.
Michael Moore puts out his opinion, loudly, and for that absolutely I dont mind people calling him out on things that may or not be true, or rebuttals to actual points. What I absolutely do mind is when people get confronted with this opposite opinion and then completely write off Moore's ability to ask questions in an entertaining way, and allow untrue claims against him to spread. I believe Rafe, in this podcast in order to denounce Moore, you essentially held all documentaries to an impossible standard of objectivity that DOES attack great documentaries such as Paradise Lost, Deliver Us From Evil, Jesus Camp (a biased film whose subjects were actually PLEASED with how they were portrayed), etc
You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and as a documentary fan I found this whole segment aggravating and ignorant.